I've been interviewed three times: one recording in person and two via email. Here is one where Greg Prince asked how I became involved and my opinions about the LDS Church's influence towards marriage equality for gay couples.
January 20, 2015
1. What brought you into the debate, within Mormon circles, concerning homosexuality and, more specifically, marriage equality?
Background info:
My husband and I joined the LDS Church Jan. '99, Northern Virginia. (I'm from AZ; he's from France).
As far as I know, I have no gay relatives. If any of my friends were gay, I had no idea. I had a gay teacher in high school (AZ), and I didn't understand why classmates made fun of him. The concept of homosexuality, good or bad, was never on my radar. I was also oblivious to how the LDS Church felt about gay people. I had no idea about Prop 8. I was a new Church member, busy having babies, living away from familial help, and having a pilot hubby who was away a lot. I didn't watch the news, either. (I could sing PBS's kids' show theme songs for you, though. -Ha!) At church, I was usually nursing a baby or walking the halls; anti-gay messages would have missed me.
Once in a while over casual conversation, I would hear a member say he "hated" gay people. Once was in Virginia, and then another member in our Illinois ward. I thought it was strong language (Hate? Really?), didn't understand why, but brushed it off as their unique weakness. Then, while also in Illinois, a member and friend came to my door with a petition. She said it was Prop 8 related. I asked what that meant. She said it was a petition to keep gay people from marrying. I kindly told her I was sorry but that I just didn't feel the spirit about that petition, and I won't sign it.
At that time, I thought it was her petition. A month later, I asked her how her petition went. She answered, "Oh, it wasn't my petition. I didn't like doing it." Puzzled, I asked her why she did it. "I was called by the Stake to do it. It was a calling."
My stomach felt sick. Thoughts in my head: My church was interfering with the lives of others? Why? Why would they do something so mean? I thought they weren't political?
I didn't understand. I also didn't make any effort to go to church for about 2 months (hubby had to work, church was 30 miles away, and toddlers-in-tow aided the decision, also). Eventually I started going back after a member friend told me the prophet knows best and that sometimes what he has to say can be hard to hear but necessary. I wasn't completely convinced, but since I didn't know anything about homosexuality, I thought maybe they knew something I didn't know.
Now to directly answer your question:
(At the time - active Mormon living in American Fork, UT, as of 12/08. TR [temple recommend]-holder. Sunday school teacher for 14-15 y.o. group. Hubby EQ [Elders Quorum] 1st Counselor).
Two years ago, my 13 y.o. son and I were brain-storming Eagle Scout projects he could do. It was late, and I jokingly remarked before retiring to bed, "You should do something to help gay people. I'm SURE the BSA [Boy Scouts of America] would LOVE that!" During this time, the BSA was debating about allowing gay scouts or not. This joke, this idea, stuck. The next day, we discussed it and both thought it was a good idea. But oh-my-goodness, where to start? I began with Mormons Building Bridges and Utah Pride Center. We discovered there was NOTHING in Utah County for gay people...no support groups, anything. Long story short: We decided to begin a Gay Straight Alliance club at American Fork High School. My 13 y.o. was dragging his feet. In the mean time, I was learning about the plight of LDS gay members. I began meeting and speaking with gay people. I read blog posts, coming out videos, went to a workshop introducing OUTreach Resource Center's Safe and Sound project to help homeless youth (most kicked out of their "loving" LDS homes for being LGBTQ+ --"Wait! What??"), attending workshops about suicide prevention. The more I learned, the more I was pulled in. My.Heart.Broke. Within a couple of weeks of that spring's General Conference session as I was learning about all of this, two local LDS youth died by suicide. One was an AFHS student, and another was an openly gay LDS member (young adult).
Urgency set in. I took my son's project from him (another reason is the SLTrib was interested in possibly running a story about his ironic project, and my husband and I didn't want him in the media). You can read about our journey here in this relatively short blog: http://myeagleprojectjourney.blogspot.com It has become a "how-to" blog for other schools to start a GSA. It helped Lone Peak HS begin one. I don't know if Timpanogos HS used my blog, but both the Alpine District schools started GSAs a year after ours.
Supporting marriage equality for gay couples followed naturally. I began wearing a rainbow-striped heart-shaped pin to church each week. I bore my testimony of God's and Christ's love for all of his children including his gay children and that we have to be careful what we say from the pulpit because 5-10% of the kids sitting here may be gay. Nobody "chooses" to be gay. What if it's your kid? -- (You get the picture... I heard I made some people mad that day).
When asked by my bishop and Stake president my position about marriage equality, I told them, "I support the Church's legal right to not have to perform the ceremony but that two consenting, non-related adults (gay or straight) should have the legal right to marry each other, and I should have the right to vote my conscience without fear of losing my temple recommend. If I don't vote my conscience out of fear from the church leaders, then I am in a cult and behaving as a cult member."
2. What have you observed, first-hand, of the Church’s rationale and tactics for justifying and advancing its actions?
I have observed the Church use misinformation about gay people, "The Family: A Proclamation to the World," and the guise of protecting the children/family as their rationale and tactics. I need to add cultish mentality to this, too.
It took me several conversations with members before realizing they have a completely different definition for "gay" than what the actual definition is. I've learned that they think "gay" means having an insatiable appetite for sodomy, and they equate "gay" as being the same thing as pedophilia and bestiality. They lump all those things into the same category. As just one example, when one of my LDS gay friends realized he was gay and sought "help," he was put into a support group of sex addicts and child molesters. He hadn't even held hands with another guy! But the Church mentality is that they are all the same and choose to be so. They also seem to think it's choice made as an adult and that there's no such thing as a gay youth.
-A ward friend was confused when I corrected him to use the term gay instead of SSA. He thought the term gay was considered an insult, that it meant the stereotype (as described above), and that he was just trying to be polite by saying SSA.
-During a Relief Society workshop, a woman stood up and spoke about her husband who was 'suffering' from SSA, "My husband is NOT gay. He just has SSA, and we're going to Northstar to work on it."
-Even when I spoke with Elder Ballard, it appeared that he did not have a clear understanding of what gay meant, either.
When I first read "The Family: A Proclamation to the World" as a new convert, I thought it was beautiful. To me, it was emphasizing the importance of taking conception of children seriously and that they deserve to be cared for. I guess I naively thought it was supporting all kinds of families -- making sure the families have the resources to help raise their children. Just because it spoke about "mother and father," I didn't initially think it was a rejection of gay parents; I thought "mother and father" was a generic term, and my brain substituted "parents," thus, completely overlooking the exclusivity. I have since seen The Proc as an excuse for the Church and loyal members to support only certain families (mother, father, children) and condemn other families (single parents, LGBTQ+ parents) and take political action to do so. That's abusive and sad, IMO. What a waste of resources.
I don't understand how gay couples marrying will destroy others' "traditional" marriage, but that's what I've heard from Church members.
-I've listened to Oaks' talk being quoted over my ward's pulpit about our religious freedoms being under attack (because we can't take away others' freedom?? Boo hoo).
-I was so disappointed when I saw a picture in the newspaper of a rally held at the Capitol last summer fighting against gay parents ("Every child deserves a mother and a father!": there in the picture were several of my ward members and neighbors, people who I cared for hurting other people I cared for.
-My neighbor behind me posted on Facebook that she had started to understand the rationale of why people would support marriage equality. She had been hired to do some typing for a publication which supported it. While transcribing/typing the pro-agruments, the reasons made sense to her. Then she said, "BUT! I remembered I made a covenant to follow the prophet, and that's what I'm going to do." << So there it is. She trades logic, reasoning, and decency with following a prophet. That's cult behavior.
Ultimately, the Church is using God as an excuse to further their agenda. Leaders of this church as well as other misinformed churches are products of ill-informed religious up-bringing where ideas about gay people are from a narrow interpretation of ancient scripture taken out of context, twisted to be more condemning during the Middle Ages, and passed down generation after generation with a threat of "don't ever question ecclesiastical authority or else you'll be in trouble with God" mentality.
3. What have you observed, first-hand, of the consequences of the Church’s actions, particularly in the political arena (e.g., Prop 22 and Prop 8 in California, and Amendment 3 in Utah) on individuals and families, whether positive or negative?
I've seen division and all types of relationships destroyed (family, peers, professional, political). I've also seen people leave the Church over this issue.
-Personally, I've lost TBM [true blue Mormon] friends after I became an advocate (BUT I've gained even better, genuine friends!). What I've gone through is mild compared to what others have experienced.
-A BYU-Idaho religion professor taught a friend's son and his class last year that anyone who supported marriage equality was a Satan figure. (Very divisive language and manipulation of young minds).
-I have an LDS friend who didn't know she had a gay son (13) while she and her husband obediently posted Prop 8 signs in their California yard and simultaneously announced how disgusting gay people were; he nearly took his own life to protect his parents from the shame of knowing they have a gay child.
-I have neighbors whose family members rejected them when they were supportive of their son who came out.
-It's not just TBMs becoming suspicious of advocates, but it's also advocates losing respect for those who fight against LGBTQ+ people's rights. (I have lost so much respect for many of my ward members, especially those who actively and blindly fight against equality without even getting to know the people they are hurting personally first).
The positive things I've observed from the LDS Church's involvement are awareness of the problems of discrimination, open dialogue to correct the problems, education, and progress. Seriously, if the LDS Church and its members hadn't been such ... such... I'm gonna say it: assholes, then I would have continued to be oblivious to the silent anguish the gay community has had to endure from prejudice, bigotry, discrimination, etc. The LDS Church's actions have brought the inhumane problems to the forefront so those of us with a conscience could do something about it. In my opinion, Props 22 and 8 as well as Amendment 3 made marriage equality a reality.
4. Tom mentioned your attempt to have The Miracle of Forgiveness removed from print. Can you describe your attempts and any responses from Deseret Book or church leaders?
As I listened to the LGBTQ community (particularly the LDS LGBTQ community), a certain book title was commonly mentioned, President (apostle at the time) Spencer W. Kimball's The Miracle of Forgiveness as a source of much pain. One gay BYU student told me directly during a suicide awareness workshop that his first suicide attempt was about a month after reading The MofF. I was later told that this book was a standard in Mormon homes and that it's common for local leaders to keep copies in their office and hand them out to members who have morality issues. {Jump to a few months ago, 2014: an LDS friend of mine here in AF who had been pretending to be straight and in a traditional marriage came out to her bishop. He gave her a copy of The MofF. So, this practice is still being done.}
I purchased my own used copy for a dollar via Amazon to see what people were talking about. I was floored. In my opinion, that book has a lot of blood on its pages and is responsible for destroying families and lives. Of course, it's just a reflection of Church attitudes, but the fact that it's in a condemning book form solidifies the ignorance, making it that much more dangerous. I also noticed that the book contradicted the current Church teachings found in mormonsandgays.org. I thought that if I pointed it out to our leaders then they would take the reasonable and logical steps in correcting the problem. I had faith that the leaders would do the right thing ("Choose the right!"), apologize, and make amends. So, I did my research and formulated a long letter, personalizing each one in the greetings and intro. During the summer months of 2013, I sent out approximately 100 hard-copy letters to most of the Church presidency, apostles, and the Seventy. I also sent out a few to DeseretBook including Sheri Dew.
I had an inside friend give me the home addresses of some of the GA presidency members. Those were returned...opened.
Pres. Erying's (via his secretary) replied saying they are making note of my letter but that they have no jurisdiction over changing the book.
I never heard back from Dew, however, a Mormons Building Bridges leader had an appointment with her to discuss my letter and what steps can be taken to rectify the problem. Dew ended up canceling the appointment. It's my understanding that DB knows The MofF is a problem.
I did hear back from Elder Ballard. He emailed August 21, 2013, asking me to call him. During the call (I would have to look up the exact date), I took notes then wrote the following down immediately after the call:
Well. It wasn't disastrous. I stayed calm and peaceful, not argumentative (I don't think I was). Focused. (Didn't ramble) I sense he isn't for Mormonsandgays.org (merely speculation -- he never came right out and said it). He kept steering me towards lds.org and the articles there {-- at that time, there was no link to M&G dot org from lds.org. I am told that there is a link now although I have not confirmed that}. At one point I said, "I'm sorry, isn't M&G an official Church website?" He confirmed it was.
He started off by saying the Church is not in a position to make changes to the book. And they aren't going to make any statements that would tarnish SWK's name. I followed up that I understood and that I would like to see the members to at least learn of what is said on M&G (that "SSA" is not a choice nor an illness). "Oh, careful there. There is a lot of choice."
And this is when I realized I wasn't going to be heard. It appears he still thinks being gay is a choice. I listened and interjected. When he said we can't change doctrine, I asked if MofF was doctrine. Long pause. He answered yes and followed it with the parts that were (but I don't think he would say the "strong" words would be doctrine, that the way it was presented was Kimball's).
He seemed to avoid the idea of promoting what's in M&G. He has the stereotype in his head about what gay people are (called them "butterflies") and is convinced that "100's have been able to change their lifestyle."
This is the sad (sadder?) part. I brought up how our 13-14-15 year old gay youth and young adults feel unwelcome and are killing themselves. In my opinion, Ballard didn't validate their lives. "Oh, I don't know that there's that many." I said to him one is too many. He went on that there are other reasons for suicide: mental illness, drugs, and he listed more. (Complete denial, imo).
Regarding members' attitudes and hurtful speech towards "SSA" (I tried to speak his language). He agreed that members can get carried away and think they know what is taught and what isn't. I said that this book contributes to the hurtful talk towards our SSA brothers and sisters. He told me to keep doing the best that I can but to "be wise in my crusade." I said I am trying to support the official Church website and the kinder words there as apposed to MofF. He said stirring people up leads to bigger issues. (I don't know what he meant by that).
I bore my testimony and love for Christ, and that I am doing my best to follow him and his example and that this is why I wrote the letter and that I love my gay brothers and sisters. I said it is never my intent to mislead or embarrass anyone (I didn't feel I did). That's when he warmed up (he was polite before, but not really warm). He was supportive of my character and said something like there's no doubt. He said, "We must love them the best we can." (Is it difficult? -- rolling eyes)
That's pretty much it. The conversation was filled in with the same type of preaching we hear at GC. I listened. I thanked him for his time. He asked about my family. I asked him about the water damage in his office (his secretary told me). He said my most important mission is my children, to raise them right. I agreed and said I am hoping for a kinder world for them to live in.
The last I saw, the book was still on DB's shelves. There was talk last year about beginning a letter campaign to remove the book from Church bookstores, but it was agreed that advocacy resources were needed for Utah's SB 100 and marriage equality debates.
{2015 Update: The Miracle of Forgiveness has been removed from DeseretBook bookshelves, although I can't vouch for each and every one across the country. Hopefully, they all complied}.
5. Have you had any comments from non-LDS friends relating to the LDS Church position on marriage equality?
Not too much. I've been pretty much in an LDS-world. I have a Baptist friend (attends weekly) in Oklahoma tell me she's fine with gay people marrying each other and that her church hasn't been condemning as far as she remembers (NOT the Westboro variety). She says her focus is more on the loving kindness of Christ's behavior and example and to treat others the way she thinks Christ would treat them (which is lovingly and respectfully).
6. Have you seen any changes in the way the Church deals with homosexuality as a topic, and with homosexuals as individuals?
Not really. I used to think that the Church's official website, mormonsandgays.org was a positive step in the right direction because it recognized that being gay (oops! "SSA") was not a choice, illness, nor something to be fixed. It also acknowledged that mixed-orientation marriages weren't typically a healthy choice. And it promoted kindness and respectful behavior towards our gay brothers and sisters. This is a huge improvement from The Miracle of Forgiveness rhetoric. But the Church has done very little to even promote its website. I believe some of the top 15 wish it didn't exist (Ballard being one of them). My Stake President was NOT aware that the website said right on top of its page that being gay was neither a choice, illness, nor something to be fixed. I had to point it out to him. (You should have seen the look on his face!) He's a good man, though. {The website, btw, needs to emphasize teens can be gay, too, and often know at young ages their orientation, whether or not they "act" on it. I also wish it didn't push celibacy for gay members who want to be active members. For a church to raise people to be family-oriented and say how great spouses and children are to then sentence a gay member to a lifetime of solitude if that member wants to be considered "worthy" aka "good-enough" is inhumane and imo, not something MY heavenly father would endorse.} The Church, as an entity, doesn't seem seriously interested in welcoming gay members. If they were, something positive (and direct) would be said during General Conference, like promoting their mormonsandgays.org website, for instance. Or denouncing the demeaning language in The Miracle of Forgiveness and apologizing* for it.
{*Update: Elder Oaks has made it clear the Church doesn't apologize (link), which is counter to every lesson about repentance/restitution ever given. "Do as we say and not as we do." See meme at bottom of this page}.
There's also no consistent counsel from the top about how to handle members who support marriage equality, gay members, trans* members, their families, etc. The member's outcome depends on bishop roulette. I've had fellow advocates lose their TRs, callings, and VT/HT assignments for doing less advocacy work than I have, yet I was still able to renew my TR, etc. all because I happen to have leaders that understand (after lonnnngggg discussions) that I have a right to vote my conscience. (Thank goodness that BYU-I professor wasn't my bishop -- he would have put a scarlet letter on me and label me a Satan figure!) Why do we (as a church) think it's okay for bishops and other leaders who have had NO legitimate psychology training to then counsel members about such personal issues? It's so destructive.
{Update: 3 months after this interview, the Church finally counsels leaders that it's ok to publicly support gay marriage without fear of punishment from leaders. Link HERE}.
7. How have you seen church actions affect the national debate on marriage equality?
Oh, my goodness, their actions have helped marriage equality. Their whining about Shelby, Amendment 3, and religious liberty brought the debate out in the open. The public could see that the best arguments the Church (and Utah's Right Wing politicians) had to offer were weak and unkind.
Closing thoughts that may or may not pertain or interest you:
After beginning the GSA, I also saw a need for LDS moms with LGBTQ kids to have a safe place to find support and know they are not alone. I began the Facebook group Mama Dragon Council (Mama Dragon was coined by my friend Meg Abhau who said her protection for her gay son was stronger than a mama bear's and that she could breathe fire on anyone who dared hurt him). Here's a link to a story about the Mamas. http://www.nomorestrangers.org/when-religion-creates-dragons/
This last little bit is very personal. Only a handful a people know, and I hesitate to share it (especially if you are a Church member), but it's all part of the journey. This last summer I closed my FB account (found another AMAZING Mama Dragon to be the moderator) and had to take other steps to recoup. I felt like I was blind-sided during these past couple of years. The cognitive dissonance was heavy. Trying to "reason" and be "logical" with the Church was very disappointing. They aren't interested in reason and logic...nor truth.
After some self-reflection this summer, a thought came to me, "When people use God as an excuse to hurt and manipulate others and claim they have the authority to do so, you better look at the foundation of that authority closer before going on in any direction." I did some research and investigating and discovered cesletter.com (which does a great job presenting both sides) and through that, mormonthink.com (another site that does a great job showing both sides). The conclusion for me is that the "authority" was built on sand, and I've been lied to. Although mad about the deception, I felt light and lifted. I officially cancelled my membership/removed my name from the Church. I was legally no longer a member by the end of October, and the Church finally confirmed it last week. Had Christ-like behavior (love, kindness, respect) been the Church's mission as well as accountability and transparency, had they apologized for destructive policies and made amends/restitution, then I may still be a member. I admire how the RLDS/Community of Christ owned their history and made the best of it. They embraced their history and foundation instead of hiding it, whitewashing it, rewriting it, and bullying others from learning about it.
I would be very interested in learning about your project and seeing it when you are finished. If any of my replies have prompted more questions, feel free to ask. Good luck!
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Except for the mocking "Poison Oaks" part, this meme sends a very serious message.
A sincere apology needs to be given. The Church must set aside its pride. |
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| Photo Credit: quotesfrenzy.com |
